Comments on: Dates http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/ Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:48:32 -0500 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: Jeff http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39812 Jeff Sat, 22 Dec 2007 06:17:55 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39812 <p>A late update on one of the issues that came up here. In tomorrow’s NYT <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/22/washington/22intel.html?hp" rel="nofollow">story</a>, which is really quite interesting and mostly focused on the possibility that the CIA, and specifically McLaughlin and Tenet, criminally misled the 9/11 Commission with respect to the tapes, there is a bit at the end reporting that sources are telling the Times that the taped interrogations at issue in the Moussaoui case were done by foreign intelligence services, not the CIA:</p> <p><i>Government officials have said that the videos destroyed in 2005 were the only recordings of interrogations made by C.I.A. operatives, although in September government lawyers notified a federal judge in Virginia that the agency had recently found three audio and video recordings of detainees.</i></p> <p><i>Intelligence officials have said that those tapes were not made by the C.I.A., but by foreign intelligence services.</i></p> A late update on one of the issues that came up here. In tomorrow’s NYT story, which is really quite interesting and mostly focused on the possibility that the CIA, and specifically McLaughlin and Tenet, criminally misled the 9/11 Commission with respect to the tapes, there is a bit at the end reporting that sources are telling the Times that the taped interrogations at issue in the Moussaoui case were done by foreign intelligence services, not the CIA:

Government officials have said that the videos destroyed in 2005 were the only recordings of interrogations made by C.I.A. operatives, although in September government lawyers notified a federal judge in Virginia that the agency had recently found three audio and video recordings of detainees.

Intelligence officials have said that those tapes were not made by the C.I.A., but by foreign intelligence services.

]]> By: MarkH http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39807 MarkH Sat, 22 Dec 2007 05:08:22 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39807 <blockquote><p> … the Human Rights lawyer’s listing of how many have died in US custody? I think she said 100, and she was on CSPAN this morning and said that 8 detainees have died directly as a result of torture. … </p></blockquote> <p>As I recall there is a record of deaths at Abu Ghraib, so deaths at Guantanamo or at other sites to which prisoners were rendered (taken) isn’t so surprising. But, it is clearly scandalous and calls for an investigation and probably the removal of the entire Bush administration (preliminary to lashing them in public).</p>

… the Human Rights lawyer’s listing of how many have died in US custody? I think she said 100, and she was on CSPAN this morning and said that 8 detainees have died directly as a result of torture. …

As I recall there is a record of deaths at Abu Ghraib, so deaths at Guantanamo or at other sites to which prisoners were rendered (taken) isn’t so surprising. But, it is clearly scandalous and calls for an investigation and probably the removal of the entire Bush administration (preliminary to lashing them in public).

]]> By: JohnLopresti http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39784 JohnLopresti Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:07:01 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39784 <p>I had the impression one strategy for secret sites to tortcha prisoners was in facilities already equipped for the practice, although somewhat mouldering with lack of maintenance, in the newlyIndependent states. Each such country had its own internal modern politics and agenda. The WClinton era addressed problems in some of those lands by employing various permutations of classic US armed cleanup methods. But both the EU and NATO have been morphing in recent times, and on November 28, 2006 was another pow-wow among leadership, that event constituted by nato in a venue in Latvia. There is lots more available <a href="http://www.rigasummit.lv/en/id/speechin/nid/53/" rel="nofollow">than that link</a> by designing a searchstring; the speech hyperlinked is by VikeFreiberga the President of Latvia. The other materials available online include Bush travelogs, some of which contain interesting remarks as he travelled the Baltic states during the summit days in the region. I would expect attaches glad to affirm during that event to their counterparts in the Baltic and NatoNIS of the former CCCP that Gitmo or some other nonNato entities would be managing the tortcha in the future. This is one year after the dates of interest in the tapes’ ostensible ‘erasure’, which recycle I take for fable, though we will see what congress hearings elicit in that regard, as well. Also the European parliament had a commission investigating secret tortcha and jail sites, publishing at various intervals several multiple hundreds of pages length reports on how the US agencies and branches of govt involved arranged and executed those POWabusive incentives, as did the CANs; the EuroParliament issued reports in both November and December 2006, but the discovery leading to the reports’ publication was longstanding. While “tapes” may not have been erased in all replicated redundant copies, the likeliest discoverable physical or eLibraries of them certainly must have interested the political planners in the US administration as the countervailing pressures in the public and congress kept the administration looking for escapes, seeing the GenevaConventions argumentation approaching in reHamdan at Scotus, and witnessing judgeLuttig’s disinterested exodus after initial parsing sufficient to move the PadillaChecker to a different court system at the last juncture to avoid judicial scrutiny; and with the evident need to get congress to remake DTA late in 2005 and again MCA in 2006. Some interesting materials may yet come from defense of Hamdan in the recent diversion of his classification to now POW status, though the government may try to ask DC court to squelch that extrusion from the tight forum without much evidentiary integrity as it has existed in Gitmo since early in the tapes sequestration and even to today.</p> I had the impression one strategy for secret sites to tortcha prisoners was in facilities already equipped for the practice, although somewhat mouldering with lack of maintenance, in the newlyIndependent states. Each such country had its own internal modern politics and agenda. The WClinton era addressed problems in some of those lands by employing various permutations of classic US armed cleanup methods. But both the EU and NATO have been morphing in recent times, and on November 28, 2006 was another pow-wow among leadership, that event constituted by nato in a venue in Latvia. There is lots more available than that link by designing a searchstring; the speech hyperlinked is by VikeFreiberga the President of Latvia. The other materials available online include Bush travelogs, some of which contain interesting remarks as he travelled the Baltic states during the summit days in the region. I would expect attaches glad to affirm during that event to their counterparts in the Baltic and NatoNIS of the former CCCP that Gitmo or some other nonNato entities would be managing the tortcha in the future. This is one year after the dates of interest in the tapes’ ostensible ‘erasure’, which recycle I take for fable, though we will see what congress hearings elicit in that regard, as well. Also the European parliament had a commission investigating secret tortcha and jail sites, publishing at various intervals several multiple hundreds of pages length reports on how the US agencies and branches of govt involved arranged and executed those POWabusive incentives, as did the CANs; the EuroParliament issued reports in both November and December 2006, but the discovery leading to the reports’ publication was longstanding. While “tapes” may not have been erased in all replicated redundant copies, the likeliest discoverable physical or eLibraries of them certainly must have interested the political planners in the US administration as the countervailing pressures in the public and congress kept the administration looking for escapes, seeing the GenevaConventions argumentation approaching in reHamdan at Scotus, and witnessing judgeLuttig’s disinterested exodus after initial parsing sufficient to move the PadillaChecker to a different court system at the last juncture to avoid judicial scrutiny; and with the evident need to get congress to remake DTA late in 2005 and again MCA in 2006. Some interesting materials may yet come from defense of Hamdan in the recent diversion of his classification to now POW status, though the government may try to ask DC court to squelch that extrusion from the tight forum without much evidentiary integrity as it has existed in Gitmo since early in the tapes sequestration and even to today.

]]> By: TheConfidenceMan http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39761 TheConfidenceMan Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:00:53 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39761 <p>I think it’s quite clear what precipitated the change in Admin lawyers’ thinking regarding the destruction of the tapes: Scooter Libby was indicted in October 2005, the tapes were apparently destroyed in November 2005.</p> <p>Cheney/Addington/Libby were afraid that Fitzgerald would discover the tapes.</p> <p><a href="http://croatan.blogspot.com/2007/12/cia-torture-tapes-and-libby-prosecution.html" rel="nofollow">http://croatan.blogspot.com/20.....ution.html</a></p> I think it’s quite clear what precipitated the change in Admin lawyers’ thinking regarding the destruction of the tapes: Scooter Libby was indicted in October 2005, the tapes were apparently destroyed in November 2005.

Cheney/Addington/Libby were afraid that Fitzgerald would discover the tapes.

http://croatan.blogspot.com/20…..ution.html

]]> By: wavpeac http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39749 wavpeac Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:01:20 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39749 <p>I just have to say that without a doubt the cure for invalidation is accountability. So while I cry for him, while my passion is to teach this concept whereever I go, it does not and should not get people off the hook. Being accountable, is the cure. </p> <p>There are some folks who might think that if I exhibit compassion for g.w then I am making an excuse…(not you Rayne…but others). There are of course explanations for everything on earth, but having compassion does not mean that we don’t hold others accountable. It was through my understanding of an invalidating environment that I understood that robbing accountability robs people from developing mastery over shame, over all kinds of skills. Today, I can validate the pain, and gently hold someone accountable for their choices, because of my faith in humanity. (despite this administration) Because a lack of faith, is a belief in evil.</p> <p>I know evil exists, and that blind faith is evil, but the dialectic really requires that we see the value, and the disadvantages of both evil and faith.</p> I just have to say that without a doubt the cure for invalidation is accountability. So while I cry for him, while my passion is to teach this concept whereever I go, it does not and should not get people off the hook. Being accountable, is the cure.

There are some folks who might think that if I exhibit compassion for g.w then I am making an excuse…(not you Rayne…but others). There are of course explanations for everything on earth, but having compassion does not mean that we don’t hold others accountable. It was through my understanding of an invalidating environment that I understood that robbing accountability robs people from developing mastery over shame, over all kinds of skills. Today, I can validate the pain, and gently hold someone accountable for their choices, because of my faith in humanity. (despite this administration) Because a lack of faith, is a belief in evil.

I know evil exists, and that blind faith is evil, but the dialectic really requires that we see the value, and the disadvantages of both evil and faith.

]]> By: sailmaker http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39738 sailmaker Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:06:36 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39738 <p>My guess as to which countries they were taping in: damn near all of the places we know about. They supposedly didn’t know how to torture, a conclusion that they reached when they got shitty info. So they studied the masters (Stalin, Nazis, Chinese, Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc), taped, and tried again. How much time in a stress position, etc. Naomi Klein’s ‘Shock Doctrine’ has more specifics about the torture. Apparently the death squad type torture (drills through the hands, legs, or feet) from the days of Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, and now Iraq do not get good info, they are only good for terror. </p> <p>My guess is that a large number of tapes, which according to NPR still exist (radio this morning), were made in Poland. Poland got a major influx of our cash for helping the wah on terra, was to be granted a ‘missile defense shield’, and Cheney visited a lot. There is speculation out there that only a few of the tapes were destroyed was because the tapes had Deadeye (or some other biggie) watching torture on them.<br /> <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6212843.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6212843.stm</a></p> <p>Also, Thailand keeps coming up<br /> <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/01/AR2005110101644_pf.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....44_pf.html</a></p> My guess as to which countries they were taping in: damn near all of the places we know about. They supposedly didn’t know how to torture, a conclusion that they reached when they got shitty info. So they studied the masters (Stalin, Nazis, Chinese, Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc), taped, and tried again. How much time in a stress position, etc. Naomi Klein’s ‘Shock Doctrine’ has more specifics about the torture. Apparently the death squad type torture (drills through the hands, legs, or feet) from the days of Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, and now Iraq do not get good info, they are only good for terror.

My guess is that a large number of tapes, which according to NPR still exist (radio this morning), were made in Poland. Poland got a major influx of our cash for helping the wah on terra, was to be granted a ‘missile defense shield’, and Cheney visited a lot. There is speculation out there that only a few of the tapes were destroyed was because the tapes had Deadeye (or some other biggie) watching torture on them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6212843.stm

Also, Thailand keeps coming up
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..44_pf.html

]]> By: Rayne http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39737 Rayne Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:41:20 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39737 <p>You’ve just hit on the motherload: <i>invalidation.</i></p> <p>Imagine what it does to a child’s psyche to see their parents take a sibling away and then go about their lives, playing golf, driking cocktails — while the sibling never comes home and there’s no explanation to the child.</p> <p>Complete and utter invalidation of children, that. Babs and Poppy both were completely f*cked up to not take the time to explain to George that his sister was ill and died; can you imagine the rage and frustration bottled up because he was so massively invalidated? Can you imagine the hijinx he thinks he’s had to pull to be validated? </p> <p>“I am the Deciderer!” is the cry of that little boy who was powerless to stop his parents and his feelings of worthlessness.</p> <p>Ugh. I’d almost feel sorry for the guy if he wasn’t an adult and consciously responsible for his own actions and reactions.</p> You’ve just hit on the motherload: invalidation.

Imagine what it does to a child’s psyche to see their parents take a sibling away and then go about their lives, playing golf, driking cocktails — while the sibling never comes home and there’s no explanation to the child.

Complete and utter invalidation of children, that. Babs and Poppy both were completely f*cked up to not take the time to explain to George that his sister was ill and died; can you imagine the rage and frustration bottled up because he was so massively invalidated? Can you imagine the hijinx he thinks he’s had to pull to be validated?

“I am the Deciderer!” is the cry of that little boy who was powerless to stop his parents and his feelings of worthlessness.

Ugh. I’d almost feel sorry for the guy if he wasn’t an adult and consciously responsible for his own actions and reactions.

]]> By: obsessed http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39736 obsessed Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:34:11 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39736 <p>Mitchell completely stonewalled the debacle over ABC’s bogus fictionalized 9/11 documentary. I think he’s a crook.</p> Mitchell completely stonewalled the debacle over ABC’s bogus fictionalized 9/11 documentary. I think he’s a crook.

]]> By: wavpeac http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39735 wavpeac Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:24:21 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39735 <p>Bush reminds me so much of those “unrecovered” addicts. It actually makes me sad, because I have been honored to witness many of these folks move from that self centered narcissism to a more valid sense of self by working a 12 step program and working a DBT program. </p> <p>In my agency we work with survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and domestic violence. We also work with men and women who are violent. Lots of the same characteristics…as Bush. All of these issues seem to lead to at least a percentage of them developing substance abuse issues, or some form of violent behavior. All of them exhibiting the internalization of minimize, deny and blame in the way they interact with and see the world. That one HUGE distortion lending itself to so many behaviors of damage to the world. This being an invariant in drug and alcohol addiction, domestic violence, sexual abuse, sexual addiction, self harming behavior, parasuicidal behavior, munchausen’s, food addiction. Once we learn that one behavior (minimize,deny and blame)…we are “set up” for using compulsion to regulate discomfort. This inability to regulate shame effectively creating a river of problem behaviors. </p> <p>Our culture is blind to the real causes of violence. And so round and round we go. </p> <p>I don’t think Bush was abused, but my guess is that he was raised with a great deal of power and control, and invalidation. (power and control meaning that punishment and shaming were the primary tools of shaping as opposed to truth, consequences and positive reinforcement). </p> <p>The wealthiest often suffer greatly at the hands of invalidation. I have many clients who never learned that they could master making a bed, or that they could regulate emotions in response to being told “no”, or that they had any value besides the gifts they could give. If you learned how to get your way by using power and control, and if you have internalized minimize, deny and blame as a way to cope with shame, then the path is clear to becoming a perpetrator to self or others. The abused, the exceedingly beautiful, the exceedingly rich are all powerful soil for growing personality disorders…and violence. </p> <p>This was such a controversy in my agency for many years. Back in the seventies we only wanted to work with the “true” victims. But we had such a hard time weeding out the “untrue” ones. Pretty soon we realized that there were some common patterns in abuse that lent themselves to the very same behaviors as “bad” folks we didn’t want to treat. A true dilemma for those in my field. </p> <p>I am not sure what is says about me, but I love working with personality disorders and that very intractable form of denial that Bushco as well as so many other disorders that exhibit denial as the foundation of their insight about the world. This episode of politics under bushco has fascinated me as much for what it says about bushco as what is says about america and it’s culture. Good stuff to learn here.</p> Bush reminds me so much of those “unrecovered” addicts. It actually makes me sad, because I have been honored to witness many of these folks move from that self centered narcissism to a more valid sense of self by working a 12 step program and working a DBT program.

In my agency we work with survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and domestic violence. We also work with men and women who are violent. Lots of the same characteristics…as Bush. All of these issues seem to lead to at least a percentage of them developing substance abuse issues, or some form of violent behavior. All of them exhibiting the internalization of minimize, deny and blame in the way they interact with and see the world. That one HUGE distortion lending itself to so many behaviors of damage to the world. This being an invariant in drug and alcohol addiction, domestic violence, sexual abuse, sexual addiction, self harming behavior, parasuicidal behavior, munchausen’s, food addiction. Once we learn that one behavior (minimize,deny and blame)…we are “set up” for using compulsion to regulate discomfort. This inability to regulate shame effectively creating a river of problem behaviors.

Our culture is blind to the real causes of violence. And so round and round we go.

I don’t think Bush was abused, but my guess is that he was raised with a great deal of power and control, and invalidation. (power and control meaning that punishment and shaming were the primary tools of shaping as opposed to truth, consequences and positive reinforcement).

The wealthiest often suffer greatly at the hands of invalidation. I have many clients who never learned that they could master making a bed, or that they could regulate emotions in response to being told “no”, or that they had any value besides the gifts they could give. If you learned how to get your way by using power and control, and if you have internalized minimize, deny and blame as a way to cope with shame, then the path is clear to becoming a perpetrator to self or others. The abused, the exceedingly beautiful, the exceedingly rich are all powerful soil for growing personality disorders…and violence.

This was such a controversy in my agency for many years. Back in the seventies we only wanted to work with the “true” victims. But we had such a hard time weeding out the “untrue” ones. Pretty soon we realized that there were some common patterns in abuse that lent themselves to the very same behaviors as “bad” folks we didn’t want to treat. A true dilemma for those in my field.

I am not sure what is says about me, but I love working with personality disorders and that very intractable form of denial that Bushco as well as so many other disorders that exhibit denial as the foundation of their insight about the world. This episode of politics under bushco has fascinated me as much for what it says about bushco as what is says about america and it’s culture. Good stuff to learn here.

]]> By: TheraP http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39734 TheraP Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:33:50 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/21/dates/#comment-39734 <p>True about bush. dangerous. </p> <p>I think he is also very jealous. You can see how jealous he is of Gore for that Nobel. Maybe that’s why he’s sometimes done stupid things at meetings of world leaders. Must be hard not to be the center of attention…. </p> <p>I also think that’s why he’s lately become concerned about his “legacy.” Did you hear him recently talking about that’s what he does in his presidency, go around the world spreading freedom etc.? He’s trying to “talk himself up.” Once he talked up “I’m a war president.” Now he’s trying to talk up “I’m a freedom and democracy president.” Bit of contradiction there! So I actually find it fascinating to see how he acts as a pr person on behalf of propagandizing himself. The guy is a “study” in psychopathology!! (not treatable though) </p> <p>Dangerous. Should have been stopped - in childhood!</p> True about bush. dangerous.

I think he is also very jealous. You can see how jealous he is of Gore for that Nobel. Maybe that’s why he’s sometimes done stupid things at meetings of world leaders. Must be hard not to be the center of attention….

I also think that’s why he’s lately become concerned about his “legacy.” Did you hear him recently talking about that’s what he does in his presidency, go around the world spreading freedom etc.? He’s trying to “talk himself up.” Once he talked up “I’m a war president.” Now he’s trying to talk up “I’m a freedom and democracy president.” Bit of contradiction there! So I actually find it fascinating to see how he acts as a pr person on behalf of propagandizing himself. The guy is a “study” in psychopathology!! (not treatable though)

Dangerous. Should have been stopped – in childhood!

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