Comments on: In Which Country Were the Tapes Stored? http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/ Tue, 24 Nov 2009 03:51:59 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: leveymg http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39601 leveymg Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:05:38 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39601 <p>F/U to comment last night.</p> <p>Came across a report by Richard Sale mentioning a May 17, 2002 WAPO backpager that stated Black had been reassigned from CTC. That article references conflict with Tommy Franks over command blame for letting UBL escape from Tora Bora. See,<br /> <a href="http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040728-035041-4967r.htm" rel="nofollow">http://washingtontimes.com/upi.....-4967r.htm</a></p> <p>I guess we’ll have to wait to find out when videotaped torture of Abu Zubydah and al-Nashiri actually started. My money’s still on Cofer.</p> F/U to comment last night.

Came across a report by Richard Sale mentioning a May 17, 2002 WAPO backpager that stated Black had been reassigned from CTC. That article references conflict with Tommy Franks over command blame for letting UBL escape from Tora Bora. See,
http://washingtontimes.com/upi…..-4967r.htm

I guess we’ll have to wait to find out when videotaped torture of Abu Zubydah and al-Nashiri actually started. My money’s still on Cofer.

]]> By: radiofreewill http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39567 radiofreewill Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:10:34 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39567 <p>He bought the ‘good’ one, too - the 1297 copy of the 1279 version, much updated and amended over the 1215 Original, which John had violated less than a year after signing. The 1279 version is what stands as the actual ‘base law’ for what we know as modern democracy. </p> <p>It’s the logical predecessor document to Our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.</p> <p>The signifigance of the 1215 Original version was the clear statement that ‘No man is above the Law,’ which by itself was a Landmark Event in the History of Western Civilization, but it contained nothing else that later became Law.</p> He bought the ‘good’ one, too – the 1297 copy of the 1279 version, much updated and amended over the 1215 Original, which John had violated less than a year after signing. The 1279 version is what stands as the actual ‘base law’ for what we know as modern democracy.

It’s the logical predecessor document to Our Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights.

The signifigance of the 1215 Original version was the clear statement that ‘No man is above the Law,’ which by itself was a Landmark Event in the History of Western Civilization, but it contained nothing else that later became Law.

]]> By: TheraP http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39558 TheraP Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:05:45 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39558 <p>I don’t think anyone replied to your comments. The Magna Carta copy he bought was the only copy in private hands and the only copy in the US, I believe. The other copies (15+ or so) are all in public hands, on display etc. </p> <p>The purchaser bought the document for the purpose of giving it to the National Archives, to be displayed alongside the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.</p> <p>So, he may be wealthy and have made a lot of money in finance, but obviously he has some strong civic values. And I commend him for that.</p> I don’t think anyone replied to your comments. The Magna Carta copy he bought was the only copy in private hands and the only copy in the US, I believe. The other copies (15+ or so) are all in public hands, on display etc.

The purchaser bought the document for the purpose of giving it to the National Archives, to be displayed alongside the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

So, he may be wealthy and have made a lot of money in finance, but obviously he has some strong civic values. And I commend him for that.

]]> By: leveymg http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39555 leveymg Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:14:27 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39555 <p>Hi, ew - </p> <p>Cofer Black was sworn in as State Dept. Coordinator for Counterterrorism, an Ambassadorial level position (with full diplomatic immunity), on December 3, 2002. AFASIK, he was still CIA-CTC Director until that date.</p> <p>So, if the interrogations took place in August, rather than April-May, he was still in charge.</p> <p>- leveymg</p> Hi, ew –

Cofer Black was sworn in as State Dept. Coordinator for Counterterrorism, an Ambassadorial level position (with full diplomatic immunity), on December 3, 2002. AFASIK, he was still CIA-CTC Director until that date.

So, if the interrogations took place in August, rather than April-May, he was still in charge.

- leveymg

]]> By: nolo http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39550 nolo Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:48:16 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39550 <p>as i wrote in the other thread,<br /> it seems scarecrow/the tee vee are<br /> right — the <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/washington/20intel.html?hp=&pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">new york times is<br /> reporting it, along with a larger<br /> DAY TWO story full of perino-correction-<br /> holiday-muck. perfect!</a></p> <p>so the CIA will cooperate with the<br /> house intelligence committee investigation.</p> <p>buckle up, dick — this looks to be very bad for you.</p> as i wrote in the other thread,
it seems scarecrow/the tee vee are
right — the new york times is
reporting it, along with a larger
DAY TWO story full of perino-correction-
holiday-muck. perfect!

so the CIA will cooperate with the
house intelligence committee investigation.

buckle up, dick — this looks to be very bad for you.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39549 bmaz Thu, 20 Dec 2007 04:27:43 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39549 <p>WO - That is right; you undoubtedly understand the technical explanations far better than I, but there are many more ways to manipulate and alter digital and it is harder to detect. The analog signals on a linear tape are, counter-intuitively in today’s society, better evidence. That said, there are no problems getting it into evidence as long as a proper foundation is laid. Most jurisdictions, actually all jurisdictions as far as I know, use some form of what is colloquially known as the “best evidence rule”. The best evidence rule essentially provides that copies, facsimiles, second or subsequent generation/secondary evidence etc. are not admissible if the original document is available. If the original is not available, which is the “best evidence”, consideration is then given the next best evidence. At this point of the discussion, different jurisdictions (and different types of evidence) scatter all over the spectrum as to both admissibility and weight to be afforded the evidence if admissible. Quite frankly, common sense, you hope, kind of dictates.</p> <p>In the context of your comment, assuming the originals are indeed unavailable from having been destroyed, digital copies that have been retrieved would undoubtedly be admitted with some establishment of chain of custody and appropriate foundation. However, a good lawyer is going to rip it up in cross-examination with all the holes and potential for mischief. The general standard is does the probative value outweigh the potential prejudicial effect in light of the quality of the proffered evidence. I would assume here that it would, but that would depend on a lot more factors than we have any clue about right now.</p> WO – That is right; you undoubtedly understand the technical explanations far better than I, but there are many more ways to manipulate and alter digital and it is harder to detect. The analog signals on a linear tape are, counter-intuitively in today’s society, better evidence. That said, there are no problems getting it into evidence as long as a proper foundation is laid. Most jurisdictions, actually all jurisdictions as far as I know, use some form of what is colloquially known as the “best evidence rule”. The best evidence rule essentially provides that copies, facsimiles, second or subsequent generation/secondary evidence etc. are not admissible if the original document is available. If the original is not available, which is the “best evidence”, consideration is then given the next best evidence. At this point of the discussion, different jurisdictions (and different types of evidence) scatter all over the spectrum as to both admissibility and weight to be afforded the evidence if admissible. Quite frankly, common sense, you hope, kind of dictates.

In the context of your comment, assuming the originals are indeed unavailable from having been destroyed, digital copies that have been retrieved would undoubtedly be admitted with some establishment of chain of custody and appropriate foundation. However, a good lawyer is going to rip it up in cross-examination with all the holes and potential for mischief. The general standard is does the probative value outweigh the potential prejudicial effect in light of the quality of the proffered evidence. I would assume here that it would, but that would depend on a lot more factors than we have any clue about right now.

]]> By: WilliamOckham http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39536 WilliamOckham Thu, 20 Dec 2007 02:52:00 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39536 <p>Perhaps one of the lawyers here can venture a legal opinion, but from a technical perspective a digital copy of the interrogations is completely untrustworthy. The act of destroying the originals was profound, irrespective of any copies that may exist.</p> Perhaps one of the lawyers here can venture a legal opinion, but from a technical perspective a digital copy of the interrogations is completely untrustworthy. The act of destroying the originals was profound, irrespective of any copies that may exist.

]]> By: LS http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39529 LS Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:04:34 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39529 <p>I asked that because he was,</p> <p>Fulton Armstrong<br /> National Intelligence Officer for Latin America<br /> National Intelligence Council</p> <p>and, I’m sure his name isn’t really Fulton Armstrong.</p> <p>Just takin’ a shot at it, looking under every stone…*G*</p> I asked that because he was,

Fulton Armstrong
National Intelligence Officer for Latin America
National Intelligence Council

and, I’m sure his name isn’t really Fulton Armstrong.

Just takin’ a shot at it, looking under every stone…*G*

]]> By: Hugh http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39528 Hugh Thu, 20 Dec 2007 01:01:49 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39528 <p>I think the tapes were held in Thailand. It doesn’t particularly matter which foreign country though. The main point is that by keeping overseas it made it easier to keep them away from Washington leakers and it also made them easier to destroy once that decision was made. The part these brainiacs overlooked was that storing them abroad meant they had less effective control and various people could and did make copies of them.</p> I think the tapes were held in Thailand. It doesn’t particularly matter which foreign country though. The main point is that by keeping overseas it made it easier to keep them away from Washington leakers and it also made them easier to destroy once that decision was made. The part these brainiacs overlooked was that storing them abroad meant they had less effective control and various people could and did make copies of them.

]]> By: mainsailset http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/comment-page-1/#comment-39525 mainsailset Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:47:50 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/19/in-which-country-were-the-tapes-stored/#comment-39525 <p>Certainly given the animosity that Cheney has openly directed at the CIA; given the disdain Cheney & his office demonstrated by outting (right before America’s very eyes) a valuable CIA NOC named Valerie, if I were a CIA team in the field who held those tapes in my hands, I’d be thinking long and hard about what it means to prosecute Cheney/Bush’s directives and destroy what is the sole hard evidence to either save my sorry ass or hold my superiors accountable. It would seem credible that these tapes would have time stamps, authorizations, whatever as an introduction to each session.</p> Certainly given the animosity that Cheney has openly directed at the CIA; given the disdain Cheney & his office demonstrated by outting (right before America’s very eyes) a valuable CIA NOC named Valerie, if I were a CIA team in the field who held those tapes in my hands, I’d be thinking long and hard about what it means to prosecute Cheney/Bush’s directives and destroy what is the sole hard evidence to either save my sorry ass or hold my superiors accountable. It would seem credible that these tapes would have time stamps, authorizations, whatever as an introduction to each session.

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