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	<title>Comments on: Dick versus Scottish Haggis: The Grudge Match</title>
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		<title>By: Beerfart Liberal</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39385</link>
		<dc:creator>Beerfart Liberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 16:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;“Like I said. Dick’s an asshole.”&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Asshole’s a dick.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>“Like I said. Dick’s an asshole.”</em></p>
<p>Asshole’s a dick.</p>
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		<title>By: TheraP</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39294</link>
		<dc:creator>TheraP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’ll throw my little thought in here:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Is is possible that Specter’s timing was an effort to both &lt;em&gt;reveal and conceal&lt;/em&gt;, consistent with his character?  So, he puts this in, as said above, as a “shot across the bow” but at the same time does it on a day when everyone is expecting a filibuster and a deluge of info flowing into the public record, thus &lt;em&gt;burying&lt;/em&gt; his entries?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, was he both “sending a message” and trying to hide it at the same time?  That might be the strategy of an extremely cautious man.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But history intervened…. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(As an aside, WOW! I’m so impressed with the thinking going on here. Trying to follow/keep up.  But the 62 year old brain, coupled with the deluge of info, is overloaded, horrified, and in awe - all at the same time.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ll throw my little thought in here:</p>
<p>Is is possible that Specter’s timing was an effort to both <em>reveal and conceal</em>, consistent with his character?  So, he puts this in, as said above, as a “shot across the bow” but at the same time does it on a day when everyone is expecting a filibuster and a deluge of info flowing into the public record, thus <em>burying</em> his entries?  </p>
<p>So, was he both “sending a message” and trying to hide it at the same time?  That might be the strategy of an extremely cautious man.</p>
<p>But history intervened…. </p>
<p>(As an aside, WOW! I’m so impressed with the thinking going on here. Trying to follow/keep up.  But the 62 year old brain, coupled with the deluge of info, is overloaded, horrified, and in awe &#8211; all at the same time.)</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39287</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:20:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agree with LHP that this was Arlen’s shot across the bow.  And good for Arlen.  He should be p*ssed as hell that Cheney told the telco’s they didn’t have to waste time talking to Congress.  Too bad Arlen didn’t move for impeachment on the spot.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So Dick:&lt;br /&gt;
1. Claims, in InstitutionalAsshole that TSP never required any legislation; it’s out of Arlen’s authority.&lt;br /&gt;
2. Argues that &lt;em&gt;even if &lt;/em&gt;legislation were required, Dick has a better understanding of how all this works, because he has served in more positions, has more experience, and &lt;em&gt;straddles two branches&lt;/em&gt; of gov’t; whereas weenie little Arlen  teeters precariously on only only one thin branch of government.&lt;br /&gt;
3. Claims ‘High Level Admin Attys’ are all that’s needed to approve TSP; another reason it is outside Arlen’s authority.&lt;br /&gt;
4. Claims authority to instruct the telcos that &lt;em&gt;they can not speak to Arlen’s Judiciary Committee&lt;/em&gt; , b/c if they spoke they would violate the law by ‘revealing classified info.’&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Isn’t ‘obstructing Congress’ a crime?&lt;br /&gt;
Cheney violated told the telecoms not to testify.&lt;br /&gt;
Isn’t that a crime?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree with LHP that this was Arlen’s shot across the bow.  And good for Arlen.  He should be p*ssed as hell that Cheney told the telco’s they didn’t have to waste time talking to Congress.  Too bad Arlen didn’t move for impeachment on the spot.</p>
<p>So Dick:<br />
1. Claims, in InstitutionalAsshole that TSP never required any legislation; it’s out of Arlen’s authority.<br />
2. Argues that <em>even if </em>legislation were required, Dick has a better understanding of how all this works, because he has served in more positions, has more experience, and <em>straddles two branches</em> of gov’t; whereas weenie little Arlen  teeters precariously on only only one thin branch of government.<br />
3. Claims ‘High Level Admin Attys’ are all that’s needed to approve TSP; another reason it is outside Arlen’s authority.<br />
4. Claims authority to instruct the telcos that <em>they can not speak to Arlen’s Judiciary Committee</em> , b/c if they spoke they would violate the law by ‘revealing classified info.’</p>
<p>Isn’t ‘obstructing Congress’ a crime?<br />
Cheney violated told the telecoms not to testify.<br />
Isn’t that a crime?</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39279</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 04:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Gee, when I read the letter, I realized, as if by divine inspiration, that Dick Cheney is an asshole.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, when I read the letter, I realized, as if by divine inspiration, that Dick Cheney is an asshole.</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39248</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39248</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shorter Ashcroft: “As AG I authorized it, kind of, but I just was a dupe of Team Dick.  As AG Gonzo authorized it for real, but he was just a lying stooge of Team Dick.  In between him and me, well, you’ll have to go digging for yourself.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shorter Ashcroft: “As AG I authorized it, kind of, but I just was a dupe of Team Dick.  As AG Gonzo authorized it for real, but he was just a lying stooge of Team Dick.  In between him and me, well, you’ll have to go digging for yourself.”</p>
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		<title>By: Hmmm</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39241</link>
		<dc:creator>Hmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Quoth Ashcroft:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the attorney general of the United States says that an intelligence-gathering operation has been determined to be lawful, a company should be able to rely on that determination.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One possible interpretation, putting this together with LS &amp; LHP’s breakthrough from earlier:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- Gonzo determined The Program had a proper legal basis, unfortunately probably relying on deeply iffy OLC opinions arising from Team Dick’s exaggerated Article II wartime powers theories.  Unfortunately at that time Gonzo was only W’s attorney and not the AG, not the DAG etc., nor indeed was he even working for DOJ, and so that determination was legally irrelevant as far as authorizing the program to the telcos.  In other words while the legal theory came from DOJ in the form of OLC, OLC did not have the program approval authority, just the top of the AG command chain.  AG–&gt; Telco means something, but Yoo–&gt;Gonzo–&gt;Telco means nothing.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- Nonetheless, Gonzo or some other USG attorney (maybe DOJ maybe WH maybe NSA) presented Gonzo’s determination to the telcos — fraudulently, I might add — as their certificate of lawfulness, in lieu of a proper AG determination.  Unfortunately most of the telcos bought it.  We can infer there may have been some recurring lite pro forma but heavily compartmentalized endorsement of Gonzales’ determination by AG Ashcroft, unfortunately for Ashcroft.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- At some point DOJ beyond Yoo and Ashcroft found out what had been going on — probably because Goldsmith succeeded Yoo in OLC — and raised high holy hell — the mass resignation threat, because Addington and Yoo and Gonzales had been making a monkey out of Ashcroft and DOJ generally, and endangering them personally, FISA liability and malpractice and career-wise.  As a result the recurring lite pro forma compartmentalized approval is suspended.  Ensuing ICU confrontation between Ashcroft and Gonzales is oh so rich when viewed in this context — Goldsmith and Comey racing to make sure a near-death Ashcroft doesn’t unknowingly get hoodwinked into signing a direct AG authorization, which would pretty much cap him right there.  AG Ashcroft refuses, acting AG and DAG Comey refuses — hey look, it’s the required approval chain! — and so Gonzo and Andy Card go away real mad.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- Next day Comey &amp; Goldsmith visit the WH, W listens and then caves on getting real AG chain approval, and then either approves it himself (already relying on the wingnut Article II play so why not go all the way?) or has Gonzo do it (essentially the same as before but without the light AG Ashcroft gloss because really how much worse can it get at this point?) — I forget which way that went.  Doesn’t matter much.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- Soon Ashcroft is gone and Gonzo -is- the AG.  Now he can sign the authorizations himself with no fraud involved (though still deeply iffy legal foundation).  Authorization problem solved going forward.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- At this point, with Gonzo as the AG, re-read Ashcroft’s sentence: “If the attorney general of the United States says that an intelligence-gathering operation has been determined to be lawful, a company should be able to rely on that determination.”  AGAG told the telcos that the program had been determined to be lawful.  Albeit erroneously determined, and fraudulently represented as valid legal authority, but it was the AG making the statement nonetheless, so Ashcroft’s statement (the predicate anyway) might be true.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course eventually Gonzo crumbles and breaks under the weight of the tortuous logical construct the deceit required.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course Ashcroft’s statement also attempts to conveniently cover his own butt.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And of course as Feingold pointed out, the telcos still needed a FISC warrant — so actually Team Dick was letting it all hang out there both on the missing but required AG authorization .and. the missing but required FISC warrant.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In all, I kind of think we have a sensible story at last, all the pieces seem to be aligning.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Now… what’s Team Dick’s countermove?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quoth Ashcroft:</p>
<blockquote><p>If the attorney general of the United States says that an intelligence-gathering operation has been determined to be lawful, a company should be able to rely on that determination.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>One possible interpretation, putting this together with LS &amp; LHP’s breakthrough from earlier:</p>
<p>- Gonzo determined The Program had a proper legal basis, unfortunately probably relying on deeply iffy OLC opinions arising from Team Dick’s exaggerated Article II wartime powers theories.  Unfortunately at that time Gonzo was only W’s attorney and not the AG, not the DAG etc., nor indeed was he even working for DOJ, and so that determination was legally irrelevant as far as authorizing the program to the telcos.  In other words while the legal theory came from DOJ in the form of OLC, OLC did not have the program approval authority, just the top of the AG command chain.  AG–&gt; Telco means something, but Yoo–&gt;Gonzo–&gt;Telco means nothing.</p>
<p>- Nonetheless, Gonzo or some other USG attorney (maybe DOJ maybe WH maybe NSA) presented Gonzo’s determination to the telcos — fraudulently, I might add — as their certificate of lawfulness, in lieu of a proper AG determination.  Unfortunately most of the telcos bought it.  We can infer there may have been some recurring lite pro forma but heavily compartmentalized endorsement of Gonzales’ determination by AG Ashcroft, unfortunately for Ashcroft.</p>
<p>- At some point DOJ beyond Yoo and Ashcroft found out what had been going on — probably because Goldsmith succeeded Yoo in OLC — and raised high holy hell — the mass resignation threat, because Addington and Yoo and Gonzales had been making a monkey out of Ashcroft and DOJ generally, and endangering them personally, FISA liability and malpractice and career-wise.  As a result the recurring lite pro forma compartmentalized approval is suspended.  Ensuing ICU confrontation between Ashcroft and Gonzales is oh so rich when viewed in this context — Goldsmith and Comey racing to make sure a near-death Ashcroft doesn’t unknowingly get hoodwinked into signing a direct AG authorization, which would pretty much cap him right there.  AG Ashcroft refuses, acting AG and DAG Comey refuses — hey look, it’s the required approval chain! — and so Gonzo and Andy Card go away real mad.</p>
<p>- Next day Comey &amp; Goldsmith visit the WH, W listens and then caves on getting real AG chain approval, and then either approves it himself (already relying on the wingnut Article II play so why not go all the way?) or has Gonzo do it (essentially the same as before but without the light AG Ashcroft gloss because really how much worse can it get at this point?) — I forget which way that went.  Doesn’t matter much.</p>
<p>- Soon Ashcroft is gone and Gonzo -is- the AG.  Now he can sign the authorizations himself with no fraud involved (though still deeply iffy legal foundation).  Authorization problem solved going forward.</p>
<p>- At this point, with Gonzo as the AG, re-read Ashcroft’s sentence: “If the attorney general of the United States says that an intelligence-gathering operation has been determined to be lawful, a company should be able to rely on that determination.”  AGAG told the telcos that the program had been determined to be lawful.  Albeit erroneously determined, and fraudulently represented as valid legal authority, but it was the AG making the statement nonetheless, so Ashcroft’s statement (the predicate anyway) might be true.</p>
<p>Of course eventually Gonzo crumbles and breaks under the weight of the tortuous logical construct the deceit required.</p>
<p>Of course Ashcroft’s statement also attempts to conveniently cover his own butt.</p>
<p>And of course as Feingold pointed out, the telcos still needed a FISC warrant — so actually Team Dick was letting it all hang out there both on the missing but required AG authorization .and. the missing but required FISC warrant.</p>
<p>In all, I kind of think we have a sensible story at last, all the pieces seem to be aligning.</p>
<p>Now… what’s Team Dick’s countermove?</p>
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		<title>By: Phoenix Woman</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39237</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoenix Woman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;He acquired the name “Scottish Law” from me, in memory of his hacktackular position on the Clinton impeachment (he voted “not proven” which is a judgment available in Scottish law).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Oh, geez, I’d forgotten about that little bit of bogus rebellion against the party line.  Such a piece of worthless wankage.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;And then, after I got fed up with his false compromises over and over again, I turned it into Haggis.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also, I’m Irish, so I’m allowed to beat up on Scotland, even though I do like Haggis (the food).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Heh!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p>He acquired the name “Scottish Law” from me, in memory of his hacktackular position on the Clinton impeachment (he voted “not proven” which is a judgment available in Scottish law).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Oh, geez, I’d forgotten about that little bit of bogus rebellion against the party line.  Such a piece of worthless wankage.</p>
<blockquote><p>And then, after I got fed up with his false compromises over and over again, I turned it into Haggis.</p>
<p>Also, I’m Irish, so I’m allowed to beat up on Scotland, even though I do like Haggis (the food).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Heh!</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39232</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;preview is a friend i should pay more attention to.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>preview is a friend i should pay more attention to.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39231</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/69850&amp;date=2007-12-17&amp;hors=s&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.c-spanarchives.org/.....038;hors=s&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;damn. missing l&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/69850&amp;date=2007-12-17&amp;hors=s&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ink for yesterday’s congressional chronicle&lt;/a&gt; in my 55 above.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/69850&amp;date=2007-12-17&amp;hors=s" rel="nofollow">http://www.c-spanarchives.org/&#8230;..038;hors=s</a></p>
<p>damn. missing l<a href="http://www.c-spanarchives.org/congress/?q=node/69850&amp;date=2007-12-17&amp;hors=s" rel="nofollow">ink for yesterday’s congressional chronicle</a> in my 55 above.</p>
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		<title>By: phred</title>
		<link>http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/18/dick-versus-scottish-haggis-the-grudge-match/#comment-39229</link>
		<dc:creator>phred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 23:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks selise — and thanks EW for your earlier reply to my timing question.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks selise — and thanks EW for your earlier reply to my timing question.</p>
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