Comments on: Put Your Own–I Mean, Your Very Own–House in Order First http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/ Tue, 24 Nov 2009 05:24:25 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: phred http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38184 phred Fri, 14 Dec 2007 22:14:51 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38184 <p>bob — that’s certainly better than the certification approach, but given the penchant the MSM has to make excuses for themselves and each other, a “professional” peer group that would potentially exclude the citizen journalists like EW and the folks over at TPM, doesn’t seem adequate to me. Perhaps the voting should be opened up to the readers, although in a way we already get a vote with our on-line hits. However, the dead tree subscribers are stuck with giving the NYT the impression that they approve of Miller/Gordon-type reporting, when what they are really after are Krugman and Herbert.</p> <p>And as for your following comment about the Dems lack of familiarity with principles, I couldn’t agree more. Apparently Reid has just issued a huge go-Cheney-yourselves to the public by bringing the SSCI version of FISA to the floor. Yep, I can’t wait to go vote for Democrats in 2008. At least this time I won’t waste my time making phone calls for them or sending the incumbents any money. Honestly if they can’t ACT any differently than Rethugs, they should stop wasting their breath TALKING as if they were different.</p> bob — that’s certainly better than the certification approach, but given the penchant the MSM has to make excuses for themselves and each other, a “professional” peer group that would potentially exclude the citizen journalists like EW and the folks over at TPM, doesn’t seem adequate to me. Perhaps the voting should be opened up to the readers, although in a way we already get a vote with our on-line hits. However, the dead tree subscribers are stuck with giving the NYT the impression that they approve of Miller/Gordon-type reporting, when what they are really after are Krugman and Herbert.

And as for your following comment about the Dems lack of familiarity with principles, I couldn’t agree more. Apparently Reid has just issued a huge go-Cheney-yourselves to the public by bringing the SSCI version of FISA to the floor. Yep, I can’t wait to go vote for Democrats in 2008. At least this time I won’t waste my time making phone calls for them or sending the incumbents any money. Honestly if they can’t ACT any differently than Rethugs, they should stop wasting their breath TALKING as if they were different.

]]> By: Rayne http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38171 Rayne Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:12:15 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38171 <p>Not a bad idea, Bob; should actually have a running monthly grade, though, as far as I’m concerned, with awards at the end of the year.</p> Not a bad idea, Bob; should actually have a running monthly grade, though, as far as I’m concerned, with awards at the end of the year.

]]> By: bobschacht http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38163 bobschacht Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:59:01 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38163 <p>“WO, thanks for reminding of the old grade school saying, “the Principal is your pal” — it’s the only reason I manage to spell principal/principle correctly most of the time, and considering your point, keeping one’s relationship to the principal as a pal is certainly the best option ; )”</p> <p>My problem is that it is becoming apparent that few Democrats seem to have principles (sic.!) for pals. </p> <p>We pillory Republicans for being “fact free.”<br /> They pillory us for having no principles. When the leadership of the Democrating Party takes impeachment off the table and ignores their oath of office, this charge seems to be confirmed.</p> <p>Bob in HI</p> “WO, thanks for reminding of the old grade school saying, “the Principal is your pal” — it’s the only reason I manage to spell principal/principle correctly most of the time, and considering your point, keeping one’s relationship to the principal as a pal is certainly the best option ; )”

My problem is that it is becoming apparent that few Democrats seem to have principles (sic.!) for pals.

We pillory Republicans for being “fact free.”
They pillory us for having no principles. When the leadership of the Democrating Party takes impeachment off the table and ignores their oath of office, this charge seems to be confirmed.

Bob in HI

]]> By: bobschacht http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38159 bobschacht Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:53:49 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38159 <blockquote><p>EW, I agree that something like a Bar Association for journalists that could essentially dis-bar them for failing to adhere to fundamental standards is enticing, but I think in practice it would be impossible to enforce. There is nothing wrong with our media that can’t be fixed by the wide-open and level playing field of the web. If crap reporters in the MSM keeping peddling their bs, readers will go elsewhere to find a better product. Let them die a slow lingering death, maintaining their denial of their own complicity in their fate.</p> <p>Is it really any wonder that the media/telco giants are doing their damnedest to kill the level playing field we currently have on the web? It’s more of the corporate strategy of manipulating Congress to give them an unfair advantage when they can’t compete in a fair fight. “Free” markets my ass, I wonder what the world would be like if we actually had real competition in the market place.</p></blockquote> <p>I think regulation is out of reach. But how about “grading,” by a professional organization of journalists? We already have “awards” for journalism. Why not just extend the concept?</p> <p>1. First of all, broaden the number of different kinds of awards– like Oscars for Journalism, so that more people, and more organizations, get recognized for their good work. Like awards for </p> <p>* Outstanding journalism in a news service (e.g., the field that includes AP, Reuters, UPI, McClatchy)</p> <p>* Outstanding journalism in a daily print newspaper (e.g. NYT, WaPo, LAT, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, etc.) This would be difficult because they have relatively large staffs that report on everything from news to entertainment, with a variety of standards.</p> <p>* Outstanding TV Journalism (e.g., NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, etc.)</p> <p>* Outstanding journalism in weekly news magazines (e.g., Time, Newsweek, USN&WR)</p> <p>* Outstanding Internet-based Journalism</p> <p>Then, in addition to these awards for “best”, how about some overall grades for the above classes. The “best,” of course, would get A’s, but the other contestants in each class would get graded, too: each one graded according to a public set of standards, voted by peers. (Wouldn’t we like to see what “grade” Joke Line would get? Maybe his “grade” would be enough of an embarrassment to motivate him to shape up!)</p> <p>With the voting controlled by professional peers, they would be freed from the controlling directives of business management and bean counters who care more about Nielsen ratings and other such measures, rather than journalistic quality.</p> <p>Bob in HI</p>

EW, I agree that something like a Bar Association for journalists that could essentially dis-bar them for failing to adhere to fundamental standards is enticing, but I think in practice it would be impossible to enforce. There is nothing wrong with our media that can’t be fixed by the wide-open and level playing field of the web. If crap reporters in the MSM keeping peddling their bs, readers will go elsewhere to find a better product. Let them die a slow lingering death, maintaining their denial of their own complicity in their fate.

Is it really any wonder that the media/telco giants are doing their damnedest to kill the level playing field we currently have on the web? It’s more of the corporate strategy of manipulating Congress to give them an unfair advantage when they can’t compete in a fair fight. “Free” markets my ass, I wonder what the world would be like if we actually had real competition in the market place.

I think regulation is out of reach. But how about “grading,” by a professional organization of journalists? We already have “awards” for journalism. Why not just extend the concept?

1. First of all, broaden the number of different kinds of awards– like Oscars for Journalism, so that more people, and more organizations, get recognized for their good work. Like awards for

* Outstanding journalism in a news service (e.g., the field that includes AP, Reuters, UPI, McClatchy)

* Outstanding journalism in a daily print newspaper (e.g. NYT, WaPo, LAT, Boston Globe, Chicago Tribune, etc.) This would be difficult because they have relatively large staffs that report on everything from news to entertainment, with a variety of standards.

* Outstanding TV Journalism (e.g., NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, etc.)

* Outstanding journalism in weekly news magazines (e.g., Time, Newsweek, USN&WR)

* Outstanding Internet-based Journalism

Then, in addition to these awards for “best”, how about some overall grades for the above classes. The “best,” of course, would get A’s, but the other contestants in each class would get graded, too: each one graded according to a public set of standards, voted by peers. (Wouldn’t we like to see what “grade” Joke Line would get? Maybe his “grade” would be enough of an embarrassment to motivate him to shape up!)

With the voting controlled by professional peers, they would be freed from the controlling directives of business management and bean counters who care more about Nielsen ratings and other such measures, rather than journalistic quality.

Bob in HI

]]> By: WilliamOckham http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38152 WilliamOckham Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:45:40 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38152 <p>The thing that irritates me the most about the sanctimonious tripe emanating from the defenders of “Professional Journalism” (of which this is just the latest example) is the absolute ignorance of history. Associate Professor Hazinski would do well to venture out into that “wretched hive of scum and villainy” known as the Internet and do a search for “Joseph Pulitzer” and “William Randolph Hearst”. I’m pretty sure that 400 years after the invention of the internet, citizen journalists will have higher ethical standards than those two guys did 400 years after the invention of the printing press.</p> The thing that irritates me the most about the sanctimonious tripe emanating from the defenders of “Professional Journalism” (of which this is just the latest example) is the absolute ignorance of history. Associate Professor Hazinski would do well to venture out into that “wretched hive of scum and villainy” known as the Internet and do a search for “Joseph Pulitzer” and “William Randolph Hearst”. I’m pretty sure that 400 years after the invention of the internet, citizen journalists will have higher ethical standards than those two guys did 400 years after the invention of the printing press.

]]> By: Hugh http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38144 Hugh Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:26:58 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38144 <p>Mainstream journalists with a few exceptions are lazy, sloppy, unprofessional, and partisan, in other words much the same as they accuse us of being. Most of the time we try hard to get our facts right so that takes out the first three critisms made against us. As for partisanship, yes, we are but unlike the MSM we state our slant up front. We do not mask it in the guise of a pseudo-objectivity made up of nothing but regurgitated White House talking points. In other words, we seek to be honest and fact based. Traditional journalism has no idea what this means.</p> <p>The MSM also likes to point out how only they produce news, that bloggers only give their opinions about it. But as the breaking of the US Attorneys scandal or the coverage of the Libby trial showed this is increasingly incorrect. In addition, the MSM overlooks that staffs and budgets in many news organizations have been repeatedly cut in the last few years and that they too now depend on external news feeds like the AP and Reuters.</p> Mainstream journalists with a few exceptions are lazy, sloppy, unprofessional, and partisan, in other words much the same as they accuse us of being. Most of the time we try hard to get our facts right so that takes out the first three critisms made against us. As for partisanship, yes, we are but unlike the MSM we state our slant up front. We do not mask it in the guise of a pseudo-objectivity made up of nothing but regurgitated White House talking points. In other words, we seek to be honest and fact based. Traditional journalism has no idea what this means.

The MSM also likes to point out how only they produce news, that bloggers only give their opinions about it. But as the breaking of the US Attorneys scandal or the coverage of the Libby trial showed this is increasingly incorrect. In addition, the MSM overlooks that staffs and budgets in many news organizations have been repeatedly cut in the last few years and that they too now depend on external news feeds like the AP and Reuters.

]]> By: selise http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38138 selise Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:17:38 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38138 <p>thanks ew!</p> thanks ew!

]]> By: Rayne http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38137 Rayne Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:16:48 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38137 <p>I am laughing my ass off…Marcy, I have to introduce you to an adjunct journalism professor who is quite liberal with his use of the word “fuck”.</p> <p>It comes down to the individuals; I’m working along side two excellent journalism professors who demand the best from citizen journalists, who are both adjuncts, and who would take issue with Hazinski’s comments now that they’ve been exposed to online citizen journalism.</p> <p>Hazinski is a hack. Period.</p> I am laughing my ass off…Marcy, I have to introduce you to an adjunct journalism professor who is quite liberal with his use of the word “fuck”.

It comes down to the individuals; I’m working along side two excellent journalism professors who demand the best from citizen journalists, who are both adjuncts, and who would take issue with Hazinski’s comments now that they’ve been exposed to online citizen journalism.

Hazinski is a hack. Period.

]]> By: phred http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38135 phred Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:14:39 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38135 <p>WO, thanks for reminding of the old grade school saying, “the Principal is your pal” — it’s the only reason I manage to spell principal/principle correctly most of the time, and considering your point, keeping one’s relationship to the principal as a pal is certainly the best option ; )</p> WO, thanks for reminding of the old grade school saying, “the Principal is your pal” — it’s the only reason I manage to spell principal/principle correctly most of the time, and considering your point, keeping one’s relationship to the principal as a pal is certainly the best option ; )

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/comment-page-1/#comment-38133 bmaz Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:11:27 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/put-your-own-i-mean-your-very-own-house-in-order-first/#comment-38133 <p>Thank you for not applying that eagle eye to the crap I write…. Sticky indeed.</p> Thank you for not applying that eagle eye to the crap I write…. Sticky indeed.

]]>