Comments on: The Revolt of the Spooks http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:12:54 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Dismayed http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-2/#comment-37504 Dismayed Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:24:19 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37504 <p>I read the first half of the responses, so sorry if this is retread.</p> <p>I agree with you, EW. It’s really the only way it makes sense.</p> <p>I think the intel community is really just tired of being shat upon. They got the rap for bad intel going in to Iraq, when the intel wasn’t bad. Cheney just kept the pits and threw out the cherries, and mixed in some frog crap.</p> <p>Now the dems a playing high and mighty on torture when they are just as guilty as the guy’s ordering the floggings.</p> <p>Hell, yeah they’re putting it out there. Cheney might have fooled ‘em once, but they aren’t taking the rap for “bad intel leading to war” again, and they ain’t going to have no pharasis dems beating them up over what they tacitly approved. </p> <p>Nancy needs to be returned to ordinary citizenship. If her consituants reelect her, it’s a bad omen for progressive politics.</p> I read the first half of the responses, so sorry if this is retread.

I agree with you, EW. It’s really the only way it makes sense.

I think the intel community is really just tired of being shat upon. They got the rap for bad intel going in to Iraq, when the intel wasn’t bad. Cheney just kept the pits and threw out the cherries, and mixed in some frog crap.

Now the dems a playing high and mighty on torture when they are just as guilty as the guy’s ordering the floggings.

Hell, yeah they’re putting it out there. Cheney might have fooled ‘em once, but they aren’t taking the rap for “bad intel leading to war” again, and they ain’t going to have no pharasis dems beating them up over what they tacitly approved.

Nancy needs to be returned to ordinary citizenship. If her consituants reelect her, it’s a bad omen for progressive politics.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37194 bmaz Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:34:33 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37194 <p>Also, “how do we prove that there were orders?” Well, we had, and still have, the guy tortured and the government’s own statement admits they had and destroyed the tapes of the torture; I think that establishes the point close enough…..</p> Also, “how do we prove that there were orders?” Well, we had, and still have, the guy tortured and the government’s own statement admits they had and destroyed the tapes of the torture; I think that establishes the point close enough…..

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37193 bmaz Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:28:02 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37193 <p>Rayne, my comment is in relation to the court proceedings with Brinkema and how the issue of this requested discovery was phrased. Point being that the claim that the torture and taping were done and possessed by “someone else” is not a particularly effective defense to perjury and contempt of court allegations when the actions of the “someone else” were done at the government’s direct request and under their direct supervision.</p> Rayne, my comment is in relation to the court proceedings with Brinkema and how the issue of this requested discovery was phrased. Point being that the claim that the torture and taping were done and possessed by “someone else” is not a particularly effective defense to perjury and contempt of court allegations when the actions of the “someone else” were done at the government’s direct request and under their direct supervision.

]]> By: Rayne http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37189 Rayne Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:14:00 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37189 <p>And my response to you is that we’d have to prove just as Karpinski couldn’t that anybody upstairs in the chain of command gave the order to anybody to conduct torture.</p> <p>If Karpinski couldn’t do it to save her job, and the grunts who were punished for Abu Ghraib couldn’t, how do we prove that there were orders?</p> <p>“Outsourcing” torture makes it easier to firewall off SecDef and White House, just as outsourcing storage of recordings does; just another brick in the wall.</p> And my response to you is that we’d have to prove just as Karpinski couldn’t that anybody upstairs in the chain of command gave the order to anybody to conduct torture.

If Karpinski couldn’t do it to save her job, and the grunts who were punished for Abu Ghraib couldn’t, how do we prove that there were orders?

“Outsourcing” torture makes it easier to firewall off SecDef and White House, just as outsourcing storage of recordings does; just another brick in the wall.

]]> By: bmaz http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37183 bmaz Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:55:06 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37183 <p>Fair enough as to your specific point, it was kind of a hybrid response/thought to the discussion of all three that I named. As to your specific point, I think there is still applicability somewhat though. If I recall correctly, this whole area was a huge and repetitive issue with the two parties and Brinkema and the discussion involved knowledge and existence of tapes, transcripts etc. by the government, not restricted to current possession of the items. Therefore, if the point I made is true (and I think it is) they don’t get any help in your speculative situation either. For what little its worth…..</p> Fair enough as to your specific point, it was kind of a hybrid response/thought to the discussion of all three that I named. As to your specific point, I think there is still applicability somewhat though. If I recall correctly, this whole area was a huge and repetitive issue with the two parties and Brinkema and the discussion involved knowledge and existence of tapes, transcripts etc. by the government, not restricted to current possession of the items. Therefore, if the point I made is true (and I think it is) they don’t get any help in your speculative situation either. For what little its worth…..

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37174 emptywheel Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:23:19 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37174 <p>No. Kappes resigned <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/washington/30cia.html?ex=1306641600&en=76bb4ca7c6cf1690&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss" rel="nofollow">because</a> Goss’ COS asked him to fire his deputy, Michael Sulick:</p> <blockquote><p>The incident that directly led to his resignation occurred in November 2004, shortly after Mr. Goss took over at the agency. Patrick Murray, who was Mr. Goss’s chief of staff, ordered Mr. Kappes to fire his deputy, Michael Sulick, after Mr. Sulick had a testy exchange with Mr. Murray.</p> <p>Mr. Kappes, who at the time was in charge of the C.I.A.’s clandestine service, refused and chose to resign instead. </p></blockquote> <p>As your own link shows, Grenier was fired a year and a half later, and just a number of months before Kappes returned to CIA.</p> No. Kappes resigned because Goss’ COS asked him to fire his deputy, Michael Sulick:

The incident that directly led to his resignation occurred in November 2004, shortly after Mr. Goss took over at the agency. Patrick Murray, who was Mr. Goss’s chief of staff, ordered Mr. Kappes to fire his deputy, Michael Sulick, after Mr. Sulick had a testy exchange with Mr. Murray.

Mr. Kappes, who at the time was in charge of the C.I.A.’s clandestine service, refused and chose to resign instead.

As your own link shows, Grenier was fired a year and a half later, and just a number of months before Kappes returned to CIA.

]]> By: Jeff http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37170 Jeff Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:06:50 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37170 <blockquote><p>as a general rule, having “contractors”, “foreign agents” etc. will not remove culpability from the government if the actions were nevertheless done at the request, direction and benefit to the government.</p></blockquote> <p>Not quite to the point I was making. My speculation was that fobbing off the tapes to others helped enable the government to claim to the Moussaoui court that it did not have possession of any such tapes. The original Times report, I believem indicated that at a certain point the tapes were given to the countries in which the interrogations took place - or at least to the CIA stations there - and my guess is that was part of an effort to say technically true but deeply deeply misleading things to the court, and perhaps others.</p>

as a general rule, having “contractors”, “foreign agents” etc. will not remove culpability from the government if the actions were nevertheless done at the request, direction and benefit to the government.

Not quite to the point I was making. My speculation was that fobbing off the tapes to others helped enable the government to claim to the Moussaoui court that it did not have possession of any such tapes. The original Times report, I believem indicated that at a certain point the tapes were given to the countries in which the interrogations took place – or at least to the CIA stations there – and my guess is that was part of an effort to say technically true but deeply deeply misleading things to the court, and perhaps others.

]]> By: cinnamonape http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37134 cinnamonape Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:18:03 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37134 <p>The Agent that Goss insisted be fired was Robert Grenier, and Kappes resigned as a result. Ergo both Kappes and Grenier were opposed to the CIA’s waterboarding policy.</p> <p><a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article729944.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t.....729944.ece</a></p> <blockquote><p>Robert Grenier, head of the CIA counter-terrorism centre, was relieved of his post after a year in the job. One intelligence official said he was “not quite as aggressive as he might have been” in pursuing Al-Qaeda leaders and networks.</p> <p>Vincent Cannistraro, a former head of counter-terrorism at the agency, said: “It is not that Grenier wasn’t aggressive enough, it is that he wasn’t ‘with the programme’. He expressed misgivings about the secret prisons in Europe and the rendition of terrorists.”</p> <p><b>Grenier also opposed “excessive” interrogation, such as strapping suspects to boards and dunking them in water, according to Cannistraro.</b></p> <p>Porter Goss, who was appointed head of the CIA in August 2004 with a mission to “clean house”, has been angered by a series of leaks from CIA insiders, including revelations about “black sites” in Europe where top Al-Qaeda detainees were said to have been held.</p> <p>In last Friday’s New York Times, Goss wrote that leakers within the CIA were damaging the agency’s ability to fight terrorism and causing foreign intelligence organisations to lose confidence. “Too many of my counterparts from other countries have told me, ‘You Americans can’t keep a secret’.”</p> <p>Goss is believed to have blamed Grenier for allowing leaks to occur on his watch.</p> <p>Since the appointment of Goss, the CIA has lost almost all its high-level directors amid considerable turmoil.</p></blockquote> The Agent that Goss insisted be fired was Robert Grenier, and Kappes resigned as a result. Ergo both Kappes and Grenier were opposed to the CIA’s waterboarding policy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..729944.ece

Robert Grenier, head of the CIA counter-terrorism centre, was relieved of his post after a year in the job. One intelligence official said he was “not quite as aggressive as he might have been” in pursuing Al-Qaeda leaders and networks.

Vincent Cannistraro, a former head of counter-terrorism at the agency, said: “It is not that Grenier wasn’t aggressive enough, it is that he wasn’t ‘with the programme’. He expressed misgivings about the secret prisons in Europe and the rendition of terrorists.”

Grenier also opposed “excessive” interrogation, such as strapping suspects to boards and dunking them in water, according to Cannistraro.

Porter Goss, who was appointed head of the CIA in August 2004 with a mission to “clean house”, has been angered by a series of leaks from CIA insiders, including revelations about “black sites” in Europe where top Al-Qaeda detainees were said to have been held.

In last Friday’s New York Times, Goss wrote that leakers within the CIA were damaging the agency’s ability to fight terrorism and causing foreign intelligence organisations to lose confidence. “Too many of my counterparts from other countries have told me, ‘You Americans can’t keep a secret’.”

Goss is believed to have blamed Grenier for allowing leaks to occur on his watch.

Since the appointment of Goss, the CIA has lost almost all its high-level directors amid considerable turmoil.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37133 emptywheel Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:11:17 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37133 <p>Goss has not yet (AFAIK) made an on the record statement about the tapes. The NYT got a “declined to comment.” If he had, I strongly suspect the WaPo would have included it.</p> Goss has not yet (AFAIK) made an on the record statement about the tapes. The NYT got a “declined to comment.” If he had, I strongly suspect the WaPo would have included it.

]]> By: emptywheel http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/comment-page-1/#comment-37130 emptywheel Mon, 10 Dec 2007 20:08:53 +0000 http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2007/12/10/the-revolt-of-the-spooks/#comment-37130 <p>My doubt on this comes first from a respect for Warrick and Eggen. The former was one of the first journalists to push back against the bad Iraq intelligence. And the latter was the Post’s primary reporter on USA Purge; he broke a lot of great stories that were well-sourced and honest.</p> <p>To make the claim that their source knew what Pelosi did and didn’t <em>recall</em> if it were someone like Goss (who is not, anyway, a congressional source anymore) would be the height of dishonesty–as bad as Judy’s worst. </p> <p>And frankly, if Pelosi had been misrepresented, she would have made sure her statement refuted the refutation. Nothing in her statement does that.</p> My doubt on this comes first from a respect for Warrick and Eggen. The former was one of the first journalists to push back against the bad Iraq intelligence. And the latter was the Post’s primary reporter on USA Purge; he broke a lot of great stories that were well-sourced and honest.

To make the claim that their source knew what Pelosi did and didn’t recall if it were someone like Goss (who is not, anyway, a congressional source anymore) would be the height of dishonesty–as bad as Judy’s worst.

And frankly, if Pelosi had been misrepresented, she would have made sure her statement refuted the refutation. Nothing in her statement does that.

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